Curse

Daesu · Mar 28, 2011, 03:46 PM // 15:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by WarcryOfTruth

I don't understand what you mean here, because on my paragon (the only one I run heroes with), my main team is 3 Paragon heroes, a Dwayna Orders Dervish, and 3 Eles. I also don't run a dedicated healer, but each paragon has Motivation, I run Command. I never have any issues whatsoever with anything I need to do HM. I'm sure if I try DoA HM or something for instance, I will have trouble, but I have no desire to try that. I generally never have any issues with HM areas that I do, I recently completed FoW HM with this team without consumables. I also don't run Save Yourselves, so that massive party wide damage control is not there, I threw that out there just because I'm sure everyone was assuming I use it. But, the main point, I don't use Necros, sure I've considered wanting to add an MM into my team, but taking one thing out totally destroys my synergy

I meant that if you are a paragon and you are running 3 discord heroes, chances are you are not running the 3 paragon heroes synergy, unless you are prepared to lose some useful character roles in your team.

Life Bringing · Mar 28, 2011, 03:50 PM // 15:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dzjudz

Ah I didn't know this thread was about 4 heroes + 3x Discord vs 4 heroes + ER+healer+MM. I thought it was 4 heroes + 3x Discord vs 7 heroes, not necessarily including 2 dedicated prot/heal heroes.

I thought this as well. So you're basically saying that discord is the superior subpar setup.

Xsiriss · Mar 28, 2011, 03:58 PM // 15:58

The whole reason discordway existed was compression, with 7heroes it's pretty irrelevant. Simply having a couple of discord necro's doesn't make it discordway. Anyway the point is a pure curses necro with ench removal and nasty hexes/conditions combined with an air nuker provides the necessary DPS and support. Except it means classes can specialise properly without gimmicky attribute splits.

Mashiyu · Mar 28, 2011, 04:22 PM // 16:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

And yes, there are still people using sabway in the game

This. Sabway > Discordway*. And since my main is an elly, I'm forced to play the best (or only good) part of Discordway - the AP/YMLaD/EVAS/FH! caller - anyways.

* Sabway is basically Discordway but with actually USEFUL elites on the necro bars.

Cors Seel · Mar 28, 2011, 04:31 PM // 16:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gabs88

No, spirits are immobile and with the current meta unnessesary unless used by a player. Even with a bit of distance between groups, the first fight will usually be over around the 8 to 15 secound mark (depending on group composition and scatter) and the secound fight started around the 18-22 secound mark and over before 35 secounds. (I tend to use my skills as timers to keep track of these things, especially deep freeze (22 sec cooldown in my build) is usefull for this purpose as I tend to use that to start every single fight even if it means waiting a couple of secounds to start it )

Splinter Weapon? Ancestor's Rage? I don't take my SoS Rit for 3 spirits...

A SoS Rit with Splinter Weapon and Ancestor's Rage can easily outdamage a Discord Necro. Sometimes i'm still surprised how much damage Splinter Weapon does.. I'm seeing "53" popping up all over my screen. Even with just 2 foes in adjacent range Splinter Weapon (You do need > 2 triggers) and Ancestor's Rage both outdamage Discord...

I'm sure your build is very good and i probably can't compete against those 4 mesmers but to call ur 3 discord heroes the best possible hero backline...
We all know there is no "best hero build" So why would there be a "best possible 7 hero backline"?...

And with me playing A/W Dagger Spammer I really like to have Splinter Weapon and Ancestor's Rage @ 16 Channeling. You can't compare SW @ 10 vs SW @16 (or 14)...

HigherMinion · Mar 28, 2011, 04:43 PM // 16:43

There is some truth in this... Discord is good because of the bar compression, damage output and space for 7 support skills. If they don't use discord when you want to spike something, bind all discord heroes and micro yourself. Discord was bad before due to lack of damage and there not being enough AoE damage...

...However, this is no longer the case now there is space for 2-3 mesmer who can fill this role of supreme AoE damage.

Minions and Spirits are a given. I'd not have so many copies of /Rt resto shit though, it's not necessary.

In conclusion, Discord is the spike-aiding damage (equal to Vampric Gaze on a monk in a Bloodspike HA team) while mesmers help shutdown and deal widespread damage.

Daesu · Mar 28, 2011, 04:46 PM // 16:46

Following from my earlier post on this thread, the difference between the new discordway and meta is even more evident on physical characters than on casters.

Why don't I use discordway on my physical characters?

Here is a list of skills that are considered somewhat good to bring along with a physical character:

Smiting: SoH (if melee)
Protect: PS, Aegis...etc
Monk: Hex Removal, Dwayna's Sorrow (actually healing but works with low healing)
Curse: Enfeebling Blood, WA, PoD/Rip, MoP
Blood: BB, OOP, DF/MoF

For Discordway, all 3 necros have to invest in death magic and soul reaping. This only leaves room for about 1 more attribute for each necro to invest into.

Considering the amount of skill slots available and Discordway needing hexes and conditions plus death magic investment, there is not much room for physical support after that.

Either that, or you have to sacrifice something to fit in Discordway with physical. Probably you would have to sacrifice Blood magic and orders and no room for a commandgon too. The requirement of bringing SoH for melee also makes it harder to fit it in because you need to invest some points into smiting.

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

In conclusion, Discord is the spike-aiding damage (equal to Vampric Gaze on a monk in a Bloodspike HA team) while mesmers help shutdown and deal widespread damage.

The problem with discordway supporters is that everytime someone points out a weakness with discordway, they will use the FIRST HALF of their build (i.e. 2 rits+2 mes), which is also in the current meta, to argue back that it covers up that weakness. So there is no point arguing.

AndrewSX · Mar 28, 2011, 04:53 PM // 16:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mashiyu

Sabway > Discordway.Sabway is basically Discordway but with actually USEFUL elites on the necro bars.

Agree. I've used Discord only until i've discovered Sabway. And after some times, i've dropped it too.

The point imo is that Discord was a nice spike 3hero setup that can offer also prot/minions/heals over the plain damage. On the other hand, the spiky damage from discord is good only for vanquish, and it isn't fantastic anyways, at least not everywhere. Discord is useful only in areas where mobs are kept alive mostly by 1-2 healers protter: kill them allow easy roll(see Ferndale VQ for example).

Sab was a little less spikedamage-oriented, but more versatile, cause allows more flexibility to player(weren't we used to say "Dway for casters, Sab for meele"?), expecially if his build wasn't able to dish out conditions and hexes effectively.

But using 7heroes all this considerations are useless. If you want spike damage, run just 2 discord w/o all other rit/monk stuff. Move heals and prots on other heroes (UA+ER prot is a standard in my team) and trow in spirits(1-2 rits as you prefer)/shutdown(1-2 of :Panic-Pi-Ineptitude or some meta stuff)/utility. GG.
And if you do not need spike damage, but more AoE-pressure, drop both Discord heroes.

Ninja'd a bit by above posters.

Essence Snow · Mar 28, 2011, 05:26 PM // 17:26

Couple of points.....

While running any kind of MM in your team...most times when your team over aggros...it is due to the minions. So...noting that minions' biggest benefit is soaking up dmg when over aggro occurs...is.....well you get the picture.

Running SS and Panic heros on the same team.....here are 2 skills that have anti-synergy. If running one...it might be advisable to forfeit the other. In order for reactive skills to work they need something to react to. If you are shutting down that action...there cannot be a reaction.

Gabs88 · Mar 28, 2011, 05:32 PM // 17:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xsiriss

The whole reason discordway existed was compression, with 7heroes it's pretty irrelevant. Simply having a couple of discord necro's doesn't make it discordway. Anyway the point is a pure curses necro with ench removal and nasty hexes/conditions combined with an air nuker provides the necessary DPS and support. Except it means classes can specialise properly without gimmicky attribute splits.

My point is that it is the superior backline to combine with other kinds of builds in a 7 hero format. Especially with the current meta of mesmers or spirits + mesmers.

yum · Mar 28, 2011, 06:02 PM // 18:02

So you guys use pve skills?

ShaneOfMach · Mar 28, 2011, 06:04 PM // 18:04

Discord is a really nice filler Necro elite.

I have 3 Necromancers with 10+ Death magic, all with Discord, Animate Bone Minions, and Death Nova as their first three skills. Their other 5 skills can be anything else I want. It honestly requires very little investment for a huge return in effectiveness and damage (Death Nova for PBAoE, Discord for Single Target)

They're simply the jack-of-all-trades class, if you need specialized roles it's best not to use them.

thetwistedboy · Mar 28, 2011, 10:19 PM // 22:19

@original poster, You do realize that Discordway is pretty much a rip off Sabway with discord as an elite for all the heroes, right? You don't actually state any numbers to back up your team's ability to take on 20-30 enemies. Discordway can't do that no matter what other heroes you put in with it. That's like walking into the first room in Urgoz and killing everything. Minons die in two seconds in case you didn't notice and spirits aren't a great help against that many foes. I assume this thread is about HM btw, in NM what you suggested Discordway could do is questionable.

Gabs88 · Mar 28, 2011, 11:28 PM // 23:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by thetwistedboy

@original poster, You do realize that Discordway is pretty much a rip off Sabway with discord as an elite for all the heroes, right? You don't actually state any numbers to back up your team's ability to take on 20-30 enemies. Discordway can't do that no matter what other heroes you put in with it. That's like walking into the first room in Urgoz and killing everything. Minons die in two seconds in case you didn't notice and spirits aren't a great help against that many foes. I assume this thread is about HM btw, in NM what you suggested Discordway could do is questionable.

I suggest you reread (or actually just read) the original post and understand that im talking about discordway as a general backline and not as a complete build. Im saying discord is generally the best backup you can give to the other damage focused team options people are talking about. Wether thats a SoS + SoGM + Panic + Inept mesmer or a PI + Esurge + Panic + Inept setup like the one I genereally use.

So with that in mind, sabway consists of 3 characters, a N\Rt SS and physical support character. A N\Rt resto healer with either Icy Veins or Xinrae or VoR, and a Jagged Bones \ AoTL \ Flesh Golem minionmaster:
*The SS part of this character is more or less completely pointless in the current metagame as it does not do a good job in a team having 2+ mesmers because of blinds (ineptitude) and the amount of interrupts flying around that in turn doesnt give SS a good chance to work as it requires sucessfull skill completions along with attacks that actually hit. This character will in the current metagame still work though if you either dont play with mesmers or change the elite to say PoD.
*The N\Rt Xinrae's Healer still works, but I personally dont see it doing more damage then a N\Rt Discord healer or healing better. Mostly because while the added mesmers (atleast 2) allso provide a lot of damage reduction thru their skillsets in the form of blinds and interrupts.
*The Jagged Bones Minionmaster is a dedicated minionmaster, and given that fights are often so short when running multiple mesmers that minions barely get arrive before the fight is over. Having minions is still very much a good thing for those situations when you pull additional mobs or too many mobs. But a discord MM will be better then jagged.

And saying Discordway is a ripoff from sabway is just silly as it's significantly different in the first place.

Kaida the Heartless · Mar 28, 2011, 11:38 PM // 23:38

My current lineup is:
1x E/Mo Protter
1x N/Rt Healer
1x N/P AotL/JB MM
1x Me/E Panic
1x Me/P Inept
1x Me/P Keystone
1x Me/X ESurge
Me as N/Rt Spirit Spam

While I am running an overly-defensive setup on purpose, I feel as though I am going to switch to a Discord Backline after my Survivor is achieved. Damage is the biggest issue for VQ's and pure healing bars do nothing for that. The only thing my current build is lacking is large targetable single foe damage, which I can achieve by switching my backline over. Ele's are MIA, so that pretty much leaves Discord.

2x N/Rt Discord Healer
1x N/Mo Discord Protter
1x Me/X Panic
1x Me/X Inept
2x Me/P ESurge or Keystone

Plutoman · Mar 29, 2011, 01:18 AM // 01:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gabs88

Say youre killing 3 groups in a row, more or less grouped up. Minions hardly catch up before things are dead. In this example, a dedicated minionmaster is practically useless but youre group is doing pretty good regardless, discorders will be bringing more to the table then a ER+Healer+Minionmaster backline in the terms of saving energy that the mesmers would otherwise spend killing single targets and speeding up the process even further.

Wait.. what?

The different in healing and protection from those two groups is extreme. A dedicated MM still has room for protects, minor heals, or hex removal of some kind. A healer is a, well, good healer. Better than any one of the discords.

An ER Prot is an amazing hero that's useful. If you're speaking heroes only, it loses some of it's effectiveness, but these 3 heroes together is a survivor backline, really, because it takes a lot to bust it down. If I play myself as an ER, even without bonding, I can put a hero to full health in 1/4s + aftercast. Repeatedly. With bonding it's a non-issue anyways.

Kaida, I play similarly to you, though with my girlfriend. Typically I'll play the e/mo, and she'll play a splinter barrager, which replaces the e-surge and the hero e/mo, and we use a channeling rit in place of your bar.

Daesu · Mar 29, 2011, 04:36 AM // 04:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gabs88

My point is that it is the superior backline to combine with other kinds of builds in a 7 hero format. Especially with the current meta of mesmers or spirits + mesmers.

I still don't see much synergy between discord and the other builds.

On the other hand, AoD and AoE from the commandgon have more synergy with the spirits. FB and Gfte have synergy with the minions.

Chthon · Mar 29, 2011, 05:24 AM // 05:24

These challenges and cross challenges with no actual screenshots are getting silly. Since none of you seem to be willing to commit to a specific contest, I've taken the liberty of doing it for you: LINK

Kaida the Heartless · Mar 29, 2011, 06:08 AM // 06:08

Discord has aggressive synergy, not passive synergy by buffing other players. Essentially, you are turning your backline into a weapon, which otherwise, stands at 0 DPS.

In fact, with the Discord backline, you are looking at 7 Heroes that put out DPS, compared to 5 from the other bar. Basically:
N/Rt-N/Rt-N/Mo
vs.
E/Mo-P/X-Mo/X (which is what I think is becoming Meta)

We'll see what happens in the contest. Meanwhile, I'll do each area with 7 Mesmers and prove Mercs are broken :P

Daesu · Mar 29, 2011, 06:23 AM // 06:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaida the Heartless

Discord has aggressive synergy, not passive synergy by buffing other players. Essentially, you are turning your backline into a weapon, which otherwise, stands at 0 DPS.

In fact, with the Discord backline, you are looking at 7 Heroes that put out DPS, compared to 5 from the other bar. Basically:
N/Rt-N/Rt-N/Mo
vs.
E/Mo-P/X-Mo/X (which is what I think is becoming Meta)

We'll see what happens in the contest. Meanwhile, I'll do each area with 7 Mesmers and prove Mercs are broken :P

I think the meta is more like:

N/Mo(MM)-P/X-E/Mo or N/X(Orders)

A MM is still included in the meta.

As you can see, the only one with 0 DPS is the ER. As for the rest, it is matter of direct damage versus buff synergy.

I think the contest results would not show much of a difference between the two, but we will see. Good luck!